LUBBERS: The refugee-producing continent is Africa… We have three regions, the Horn of Africa, the Great Lakes and West Africa. If you look at a map of Africa and put circles around them, the circles would overlap… A rough calculation: 80 percent of the continent is refugees or refugee-producing [nations].

One important instrument in Africa will be effective systems for destroying small arms. The continent is loaded with guns… They are an invitation for young people to become part of gangs, and so on.

We have to start a new initiative in Afghanistan to allow refugees to return, as well as improving conditions [in refugee camps] in Pakistan. And the two are related. I think I can convince the government of Pakistan to give me more [refugee camp] sites if they see that at least some of them go back to Afghanistan.

One should not exclude the possibility that the regime will realize they have to look after their citizens. Here UNHCR has an educational role. If we can convince regimes in West Africa, in the Great Lakes region, in Afghanistan, to make the living conditions of their citizens a priority, that might produce a different situation in those countries.

Our priority is humanitarian aid, not politics, but going directly to a country and being very focused on the humanitarian can–and will–have a positive influence.

The Republican tradition is to be very cautious about interfering in [crises]… At the other end of the balance sheet, they have a tendency personally to be very aware of the world and their obligations… It may be related to their religious convictions.

That will be quite a battle. Let us be fair: at one end we have the Scandinavians and the Netherlands, which contribute $7 to $11 per capita to UNHCR. Then you have continental Europe, if you leave Switzerland out, which pays only a dime. The EU adds another 15 cents to make it a quarter… I will make you a bet: if the United States [now at 85 cents] and Japan increase their levels, I am sure we will convince the EU and the big member states to do the same.

We need an effective system of international justice to make people scared. That way they’ll create fewer refugees.